Would be interested in seeing this experiment in India, where there actually is a norm of vegetarianism! Or among Buddhists, who may have a low prevalence of vegetarianism but still morally value it
Jane Coaston (progressive libertarian writer at the nyt) has this great line: “You can’t win by acting like you’ve already won.” There’s some critical mass of people who need to agree with you before shame and pressure-based techniques start to work. Until then, you’ve gotta do the hard work of persuasion.
> “I think that persuasion is a beautiful thing where we try to convince people using reason and argument, and take them seriously” as moral agents, [Seth] said. “I do not want to give up on this.”
> My theory for the divergence here is that you can’t expect to convince a random person in a western society that being vegetarian/vegan is normal. It’s not.
I had the exact same intuition for what would explain the findings!
To be fair (lol!), vegans and vegetarians are able to put some social pressure on social situations even when they are the only one. I have a number of friends who make sure there is a vegan option at parties even though I am the only vegan in these different social groups. They also make self-deprecating jokes too, like if we are at a restaurant and when they ask what I got they say, "What did you get? The moral option?"
It is not about the ethical norms regarding the beings being eaten or not being eaten, but rather social norm around respect, politeness, and being a good host. (I feel grateful for my friends!)
Not going to make the world vegan, but its something.
What I notice in these anecdotes is that friends’ behavior has indeed shifted, but not eating behavior — your friends aren’t eating vegan just because you are around (or are they?). You could argue that the comments reflect internal discomfort which is maybe step 1 towards eating more vegan? (However lately I’ve been pondering the need to make vegan food more delicious in this equation — not an original insight just something I’d like to see discussed more in the academic literature. Some vegan food legitimately isn’t as tasty on average)
Agreed. I do think there is a sizeable affect in the name id, salience, and interest in systematic change though. My friends are representative of the general public so I don't know how far this would generalize, even if I am right about the affects on them.
I have noticed that the dynamic shifts noticeably when there are two or more vegans in a group vs one. My husband became vegan a few years after I did, and it was only at that point that things began to noticeably change. Family thanksgiving has been the most striking example: when I was the only vegan, thanksgiving was a whole turkey, whole pig's thigh, and all nonvegan sides. About half the sides had a separate tiny vegan batch, including easily veganized things like mashed potatoes.
Husband became vegan a couple years after I did. Thanksgiving that year was a single turkey's breast, a vegan roast, and all vegan sides with a little bowl of cheese at the end of the buffet line. Conversational dynamics changed too. Less probing and argumentative for sure.
Doesn't the USDA report that you cite for the 1.5 million vegetarians stat actually say that it's 1.5 million vegans? (I do agree that this - and also vegetarian estimates of 10+% - seem implausibly high)
> Based on a comparison with actual intake data, Studies from Finland, the Netherlands, and the United States calculated, that 50–80% of people who classified themselves as vegetarians actually consumed meat and fish [55–57]. This assumption is supported by the YouGov study [16], which is included in the present review. In this study, participants were asked control questions regarding any animal products they avoided in addition to being asked whether they identify as vegetarian or vegan. Based on self-reporting, the percentage of people adhering to a “mostly vegetarian” diet was 11%, and the percentage derived from the additional control questions on the avoidance of meat products was 4.3% (or 1.1% vs. 0.7% for a vegan diet).
I would buy 4.3% for vegetarian and 0.7% for vegan no problem.
Would be interested in seeing this experiment in India, where there actually is a norm of vegetarianism! Or among Buddhists, who may have a low prevalence of vegetarianism but still morally value it
Jane Coaston (progressive libertarian writer at the nyt) has this great line: “You can’t win by acting like you’ve already won.” There’s some critical mass of people who need to agree with you before shame and pressure-based techniques start to work. Until then, you’ve gotta do the hard work of persuasion.
darn right! I say as much in a Vox article https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/417717/meat-reduction-vegetarian-research --
> “I think that persuasion is a beautiful thing where we try to convince people using reason and argument, and take them seriously” as moral agents, [Seth] said. “I do not want to give up on this.”
> My theory for the divergence here is that you can’t expect to convince a random person in a western society that being vegetarian/vegan is normal. It’s not.
I had the exact same intuition for what would explain the findings!
To be fair (lol!), vegans and vegetarians are able to put some social pressure on social situations even when they are the only one. I have a number of friends who make sure there is a vegan option at parties even though I am the only vegan in these different social groups. They also make self-deprecating jokes too, like if we are at a restaurant and when they ask what I got they say, "What did you get? The moral option?"
It is not about the ethical norms regarding the beings being eaten or not being eaten, but rather social norm around respect, politeness, and being a good host. (I feel grateful for my friends!)
Not going to make the world vegan, but its something.
Btw, love this post!
What I notice in these anecdotes is that friends’ behavior has indeed shifted, but not eating behavior — your friends aren’t eating vegan just because you are around (or are they?). You could argue that the comments reflect internal discomfort which is maybe step 1 towards eating more vegan? (However lately I’ve been pondering the need to make vegan food more delicious in this equation — not an original insight just something I’d like to see discussed more in the academic literature. Some vegan food legitimately isn’t as tasty on average)
And thank you, glad you liked it!
Agreed. I do think there is a sizeable affect in the name id, salience, and interest in systematic change though. My friends are representative of the general public so I don't know how far this would generalize, even if I am right about the affects on them.
I have noticed that the dynamic shifts noticeably when there are two or more vegans in a group vs one. My husband became vegan a few years after I did, and it was only at that point that things began to noticeably change. Family thanksgiving has been the most striking example: when I was the only vegan, thanksgiving was a whole turkey, whole pig's thigh, and all nonvegan sides. About half the sides had a separate tiny vegan batch, including easily veganized things like mashed potatoes.
Husband became vegan a couple years after I did. Thanksgiving that year was a single turkey's breast, a vegan roast, and all vegan sides with a little bowl of cheese at the end of the buffet line. Conversational dynamics changed too. Less probing and argumentative for sure.
Doesn't the USDA report that you cite for the 1.5 million vegetarians stat actually say that it's 1.5 million vegans? (I do agree that this - and also vegetarian estimates of 10+% - seem implausibly high)
Ok this was actually a fun little rabbit hole: https://www.ernaehrungs-umschau.de/fileadmin/Ernaehrungs-Umschau/pdfs/pdf_2023/07_23/EU07_2023_M414_M427_PR_Storcksdieck_engl.pdf
> Based on a comparison with actual intake data, Studies from Finland, the Netherlands, and the United States calculated, that 50–80% of people who classified themselves as vegetarians actually consumed meat and fish [55–57]. This assumption is supported by the YouGov study [16], which is included in the present review. In this study, participants were asked control questions regarding any animal products they avoided in addition to being asked whether they identify as vegetarian or vegan. Based on self-reporting, the percentage of people adhering to a “mostly vegetarian” diet was 11%, and the percentage derived from the additional control questions on the avoidance of meat products was 4.3% (or 1.1% vs. 0.7% for a vegan diet).
I would buy 4.3% for vegetarian and 0.7% for vegan no problem.
Interesting! That definitely sounds more plausible than 10%.
Thank you and good catch! I was reading too fast. I shall look up a more credible estimate now…